Charles McKinney Interview

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John A. Adams ’71 Center for Military History and Strategic Analysis Military Oral History Project Interview with Charles H. McKinney by Cadet Jared C. Siebenaler, February 28, 2008.
©Adams Center, Virginia Military Institute
About the interviewer: Jared Siebenaler is majoring in History and is a member of the Class of 2008. He hopes to become an officer in the U. S. Marine Corps.
Siebenaler – The following interview is being conducted for the John A. Adams Class of ’71 Center for Military History and Strategic Analysis as part of the requirements for History 386—U.S. Military History since 1919. The interviewer is Jared Siebenaler. The interviewee is Charles McKinney. Today is February 28, 2008 and this is a telephone interview.
Siebenaler – I just want to remind you that this is for the John A. Adams Class of ’71 Center for Military History and Strategic Analysis for project for my class. Let’s begin. I want to talk to you about your background prior to your military service. Please describe your background before you went into the military.
McKinney – I was born in Selma, Alabama on January 11, 1920. I went to high school in Selma and straight out of high school into the National Guard because a friend of mine was the company commander. After a short time in that, we got into a war and I found myself involved for the duration. This was 1939, ’40, ’41—along there. About that time I got interested in the Army because it seemed we were going to be in it quite some time. I volunteered for Airborne training—one of the first 1,200 or 1,400 people to go into parachuting. After that I wound up in the 503rd Parachute Regiment at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina and there, decided that this war was not going to end anytime soon, so I applied for Officer Candidate School about 1942. I went off to Ft. Benning, Georgia where I was commissioned a second lieutenant after three months “90-day wonders,” we were called. From there I had a chance to volunteer to go to North Africa where I joined the 509th Parachute Battalion. Of course, through the African Campaign, which, after my arrival, it was not very much involved, really. Only the training phase. Then we went into Sicily where we got into the war in the Sicilian Campaign. Then, of course, on to Italy where 2
we parachuted into northern Italy one night. I finished up the war there and then into southern France, up through France into Belgium and into Germany and then back home.
Siebenaler – That sounds like a big jaunt.
McKinney – That sounds rather rapid, but that all happened over a period of about two and a half years.
Siebenaler – What year did you say you joined the military?
McKinney – I joined the National Guard in Selma, Alabama in 1937. I really joined in this little town in Alabama because there was nothing else to do and my sister was a very good friend of the company commander of the unit there. It was something to do on Tuesday night and that’s how I got involved in the military.
Siebenaler – Did you participate in any advanced training after basic? You said you went to the parachute regiment.
McKinney - Well, I took parachute training at Ft. Benning, Georgia and then, shortly after that, seeing that the war was going on for some time, I applied for Officer Candidate School and was accepted and went from Ft. Bragg back down to Ft. Benning, Georgia, went through Officer Candidate School, and commissioned a second lieutenant. It was 1943 then, I guess. From there I had a chance to volunteer, which I would have been ordered later, to go to Europe and I joined the 509th Parachute Battalion in North Africa. I was over there entirely through the war, with the 509th Parachute Battalion, which was about 600 of us, more or less. I finished up the war over there. My unit, the 509th Battalion, was finally absorbed, because the war got too big for little units so we were taken into different units like the 101st Airborne Division, the 82nd Airborne Division. I had an assignment as one of the staff officers at 18th Airborne Corps Headquarters. So that ended up my career in the war. By this time the war was over, I had been one of the early arrivals over there, so I was sent home pretty quick.
Siebenaler – What was some of your unit’s strengths and weaknesses? What is something your unit did well, and others that didn’t do so well?
McKinney – I don’t know. That’s kind of hard to answer because I think the 509 had a bunch of real nice young, tough guys that were interested in doing a good job. We had the Airborne’s first Congressional Medal of Honor winner—a Sergeant Paul Huff, a Tennessee boy. We had a lot of people 3
killed, of course, through the years there. I forget now how many Purple Hearts. I think it was like 1,700 Purple Hearts in my unit. The first Congressional Medal of Honor winner of a paratrooper, and of course, from there you went to Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star. I have the Silver Star and Bronze Star, along with a Purple Heart.
Siebenaler – What did you do to get those Silver and Bronze Stars?
McKinney – I’ll have to stop and think. I got the Silver Star in Italy someplace. I can’t remember exactly where or when. It’s been too many years. I think it was in Belgium maybe. I’m not really sure.
Siebenaler – In North Africa, which countries did you jump into? Did you parachute into Africa?
McKinney – No I did not. I went to North Africa as a replacement in the 509th Battalion and then we went into Sicily, not by parachute, but by boat. Then, of course, we parachuted into Italy. I was in the parachute invasion of Italy in the 509th Parachute Battalion. Then we were pulled out of there after so long and made the Southern France invasion and worked our way up through France, fighting the war. The next big engagements we were in was up in Belgium in the war up there, then on into Germany. After that I was transferred to the headquarters of the 18th Airborne Corps. I finished my war in Europe as a member of the 18th Airborne Corps, as one of the assistant staff officers, and then back home.
Siebenaler – You mentioned that you were a replacement in Northern Africa. What was it like being a replacement and how did the other troops, that had been there for awhile, react and how did they treat the replacements?
McKinney – Super. There were no problems there. They were fine people in the 509th Parachute Battalion. I didn’t have any problems with that. In fact, it wasn’t just me who was a replacement, there were 11 officers at the time replacing the wounded and killed in the 509th Battalion. So we didn’t have any problem there. We knew a lot of these people from back in the earlier days. No problem on being a replacement.
Siebenaler – As an officer during World War II, what was it like to lead the enlisted men during the war?
McKinney – Absolutely super. These were guys who were not really professional Army people but we were all the same. We were volunteers and draftees who had come together and trained together 4
and did the fighting together. I think they were super great. In fact, I’ve had a few of them visit me here in North Carolina after the war. A real good group of people.
Siebenaler – You mentioned you went to Sicily and Italy and Belgium. What large battles did you take part in?
McKinney – I guess the biggest battle we were in, and where we had the most casualties, was probably the fighting in Belgium, as I can remember. We lost quite a few people in the invasion of Italy. We jumped off north of Rome there. I forget the name of the area. We lost a lot of people there. We lost an awful lot of people in the fighting across part of France and Belgium, and into Germany.
Siebenaler – Do you know how many combat jumps you made?
McKinney – I only made one—into Italy. The rest you were in and out of assignments that you were in the invasion, or you were right behind it a day or two because of duties of different things. It went back and forth.
Siebenaler – What type of gear did you carry with you on your jumps? Your weapons?
McKinney – I carried an M-1 rifle along with my pistol. Most of the officers had pistols and I carried a .45, plus I carried a 1903 Springfield rifle. Are you familiar with it?
Siebenaler - Yes I am.
McKinney- A real good, accurate gun. Off and on through the war you found yourself going into a situation where the best weapon would be an M-1 rifle and then, again, you might want to carry a carbine. They came into play later in the war. I carried a carbine, I guess, the last months of the war in Italy.
Siebenaler – Can you explain your experience of jumping out of the aircraft—explain how you felt?
McKinney – It’s a real exciting thing to be called in in the afternoon and say, “Hey, we’re going to parachute into Italy or France or wherever tonight.” You have this responsibility of a platoon or company and, really, it’s quite a scary thing. You’ve got, in the case of a company, 130 or 140 guys that you’ve got to worry about. You know it’s going to be dark, you know you’re going to have trouble re-assembling, and it really weighs on you. More so after the war, maybe, than during the war. That’s a responsibility when you get to be a lieutenant or a captain or a major or something, and it’s a little frightening, really. Not from 5
your fear of the enemy, but the responsibility of 130-140 guys that are depending on you to make sure they get to the right place, at the right time, with the fewest casualties. It’s a little scary.
Siebenaler – So your men were your main concern, not yourself?
McKinney – Yes. There is so much mental anguish there that I don’t think you have time to think about and worry about getting hurt or killed or your people getting hurt. It’s a responsibility that weighs on you.
Siebenaler – What was your relationship with Col. Sink of the 506? You had mentioned that you were friends with him.
McKinney – A good friend of mine was in the 506 Regiment under General Sink. In Europe, on the continent, I got a day off when we were near them so I went up there and visited my friend, who was a lieutenant in the 506 Regiment, where General Sink was then a colonel and the regimental commander. I met him, accidentally, while I was there for a few minutes and that’s the last I saw of him during the war. After the war, at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, I happened to be assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division and then Lt. General Sink was the 18th Airborne Corps commander. I happened to be at the Corps headquarters at the day. I was coming on the base and saw him, so I walked over and saluted and shook hands and I said “It’s been a long time.” He said “Yes. I saw you in Europe during the war.” I said “Yes sir, we met.” He said “What are you doing here?” I said “I’m assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division.” You’d have to know General Sink. He said “Like hell you are. You’re coming to work for me. You sit down here.” And the next thing I know he’s on the phone to Washington and got off the phone with them and comes over to me and says “You’re not going to the 82nd. You’re assigned to the 18th Airborne Corps headquarters.” So that’s how I got to really know General Sink. I spent a couple of years there as the headquarters commandant, 18th Airborne Corps, under General Sink.
Siebenaler – What was it like working with him?
McKinney – Fantastic, because whatever I did was right and I did whatever I wanted to do. General Sink was a super, super, super commander. He was known in the 82nd as the “head of the 50 Sink Regiment.” You might have heard that.
Siebenaler – I have heard that.
McKinney – He was a well loved and respected as a great combat leader.6
Siebenaler – I’m going to ask you one more question about your combat jump. You mentioned you were so concerned about your men. What was it like when you finally hit the ground? Did you land? Were you scattered?
McKinney – We didn’t know where we were. It was night, black, and I rounded up two or three guys in my company and everybody was scattered all over Northern Italy. We got together a small group and carried out a bunch of raids and shot up automobiles and vehicles on the road and then would run up in the mountains and hide. Then, when things would quiet down and they would quit looking for us, we’d come back and do it again. It was just strictly a hit and run raid up there in the hills in Northern Italy.
Siebenaler – Did you find anybody from your unit that landed near you?
McKinney – Yes. There were about three or four of us that got together, as I remember—no more than that. People were really scattered all over Italy and the Air Force—I think it was nighttime, about midnight, and they were looking to get rid of paratroopers and they scattered our battalion all over Northern Italy. Most of us didn’t get back together until the troops, coming in from the south, had worked their way up into the northern part of Italy. Then we were able to come back and join our unit.
Siebenaler – Did everybody work pretty well—people from different units were coming together?
McKinney – Not from different units, but from our unit—from the 509 Paratroop Battalion.
Siebenaler – Is there anything you’d like to share about that combat jump that you made?
McKinney – In those days we weren’t really trained that well in how to do all of this. Things were still reasonable new in parachuting and airborne operations, and we didn’t have the equipment, I guess, that they have today, of being able to get together in darkness and scattered over the terrain for many, many miles—it was a very difficult situation. What you did was try to get together as many people as you could, that you could find, and do the best you could of the mission but it wasn’t like 500 or 1,000 people getting together. It was like three or four or five people getting together. It wasn’t very professional in those days. That’s what I’m trying to say, I guess. We lost a lot of people because of that but hopefully we did a lot of damage and disruption of the enemy’s rear.
Siebenaler – I imagine you did. What was your relationship with Colonel Westmoreland? You mentioned him.7
McKinney- Colonel Westmoreland was a great, great friend. Kitsy—her nickname--his wife, of course, still is. General Westmoreland, I met at Ft. Bragg after the war, when he was the 18th Airborne Corps commander and I was a headquarters commandant. We got to be great friends—his family and my family—and, before that, when he was at the Pentagon as the Assistant Army Chief of Staff. He called me at Ft. Benning, Georgia, one night about 9:30 or 10:00, and we talked and he said “I need you to come up here and go to work for me.” Right away, I thought “Oh, God, no. I’m going to lose my jump pay.” Are you familiar with parachute pay?
Siebenaler – Yes, I am, sir.
McKinney – That was the first thing I thought about—“Oh, Lord, there goes my $110—or whatever—a month.” But anyway, that was about 10:00 at night and we talked a few minutes and I finally said “O.K., General, you’ve got a deal.” He said “O.K., good.” That was about 11:00 at night when we finished talking. Then about 5:00 or so in the morning I get a call from the post commander at Ft. Benning and he says “I have an order here for you to report to General Maxwell Taylor and General Westmoreland at the Pentagon.” I said “Yes, General, I know. I talked to General Westmoreland at great lengths last night and I’m not going up there tomorrow, but maybe in a couple or three days.” He said “You’re going tomorrow. I have orders here for you to be there tomorrow morning.” So my wife and son and I jumped in the car and took off to Washington. We spent the next year and a half or two years, I guess, there working for General Westmoreland and General Taylor.
Siebenaler – How was General Taylor?
McKinney – He was a nice guy—just super. He had the 101st Division, I guess, during the war—Maxwell Taylor.
Siebenaler – Can you explain some of your actions in Belgium when you fought there?
McKinney – Cold, wet, mines and bobby traps everywhere, that the Germans left for us. But the paratroopers were a group of good guys. Paratroopers, basically, were really good, good soldiers. Easy to command at the platoon, company, battalion levels so I enjoyed all of that, if you can enjoy a war.
Siebenaler – Exactly. Did you see a lot of combat in Belgium?
McKinney – Not there. Most of the combat I saw was in Italy and France. I think I got the Silver Star in Italy or France—maybe North Africa. Hell, I don’t remember. The Purple Heart I got in Italy. I 8
remember that. That was an artillery fragment. I got the Bronze Star somewhere. It’s been so long I really don’t remember exact places and dates.
Siebenaler – You are familiar with gliders, correct?
McKinney – Oh yes.
Siebenaler – Did you have any experience with them?
McKinney – I rode in a glider once. I don’t even remember where it was, and I thought “That’s enough for me.” I didn’t want any part of those things. But we had a couple of glider units—325 Glider Regiment I remember—and I was around them at times but I didn’t have any use for those things.
Siebenaler – You’d rather have a parachute?
McKinney – The parachute, I had all the confidence in the world in. I made something well over 100 parachute jumps.
Siebenaler – What was your most memorable or unforgettable experience of World War II?
McKinney – I guess my first combat parachute jump in Italy, because you don’t know what to expect and you’ve never done it before and you’ve got a lot of responsibility with a bunch of people who have been in the same boat. That was quite an experience.
Siebenaler – After World War II, what was the state of the Army like during the post-war period after the war?
McKinney – I was not a professional soldier so right after the war I got out as quickly as I could. I had been out about 30 days and then, all of a sudden I realized, hey, all of my buddies are back there in the Army, and that didn’t go well with me. So I called up to the Pentagon and told them if they’d like to have my service I would be glad to come back in the Army. They said “Good. Report to 82nd Airborne Division.” So I got in the car—my wife and I—and drove to Ft. Bragg and joined the 82nd Airborne Division, 505th Parachute Regiment. Now, I knew a lot of people in the 505 from the war, so that was more or less like coming back home. I stayed with it then, of course, for 20 years and retired after 20 years. As I told you, before doing that 20 years, a lot a part of it, I met General Sink through a friend of mine who had worked for him. He had me transferred to 18th Airborne Corps to be his headquarters commandant, which I liked and enjoyed. It kind of went from here to there, as things just happened to 9
happen. I was not one of those professional soldiers that wanted to do and be in certain jobs and units to get to be a three or four-star general. That wasn’t my game.
Siebenaler – You mentioned that you went to Korea. Is that correct?
McKinney – Yes. I was in the Korean War. I don’t know how I got mixed up with all these things. I was in the 82nd Division and my regimental commander, a General Thomas Trapnell—T-r-a-p-n-e-l-l—had been a West Pointer and had been captured in the Philippines, in that invasion there by the Japanese. He came out of the prison camps and took Airborne training and was assigned to the 82nd Division, and turned into our regimental commander as a colonel. I worked for him in the 505th Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division. After a short time he was ordered—in 1950 or 1951—to Korea, because they wanted to promote him as quickly as possible. Of course, we hadn’t been there 15 minutes and he’s on the phone back to Ft. Bragg to me, “I want you to volunteer to come to the Korean War and work for me.” So that’s how I got in the Korean War. I called the Pentagon, they said “Yes, they’d had a call from General Trapnell,” and so the next day I get orders to go to join the 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team in Korea. So that’s how I wound up over there, working for a fellow who turned out to be a great friend and a three-star general—Thomas Trapnell.
Siebenaler – What rank did you have in Korea?
McKinney – I was, I think, a major. I wasn’t one for rank. I kind of looked at the job more than the rank. I didn’t care for the rank. I liked to do the job that I liked to do. I’m sure it cost me a promotion somewhere along the line. I had a pretty good record. I have the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, and all the other stuff that goes with it. I think two or three Presidential Unit Citations and stuff like that.
Siebenaler – Were you wounded in World War II, or where did you get hit?
McKinney – World War II—somewhere in Belgium I think. I’m pretty sure it was up in Belgium.
Siebenaler – Was it a gunshot?
McKinney – No, shrapnel. I’ve got a couple of scars. I think everybody did that went through all that.
Siebenaler – Probably. In Korea, did you lead men in combat as an officer?
McKinney – In Korea? Yes. Wait a minute—let me think. I was in a rifle company and I guess you’d say yes. I was a platoon leader and company commander, but we were in and out of Korea. We 10
were really stationed in Japan, but when the need arose for strength here or there, we were rushed in to Korea a couple of times, in the combat positions.
Siebenaler – You didn’t make any combat jumps in Korea?
McKinney – No, didn’t make a combat jump in Korea.
Siebenaler – Is there any specific story of memory you want to share about your experiences from Korea?
McKinney – No, I think I’ve covered it. We were young and it was exciting. I guess the most exciting thing was the first time we had parachuted behind the German lines at night and get into the thick of a war back in their territory. It was something that a lot of people did. It wasn’t just a few of us that did it. When you stop to think about two or three divisions from time to time, doing that, it was an awful lot of us who wound up doing it.
Siebenaler – Could you, please, compare and contrast the Germans as enemies, versus the North Koreans and Communist Chinese?
McKinney – Let me tell you, they were both real good soldiers—very good. They were very disciplined and well-trained. It was a different kind of war though. In Europe it was, as much as anything, a trench warfare to some extent. I think, from what little I saw of it, it was a different ballgame—different type of fighting. I don’t know quite how to describe it to you, but they were both real good opponents.
Siebenaler – So afterwards, when did you retire from the Army—what year?
McKinney – 1962, I think. The reason I retired, I ran into General Sink, after the war at Ft. Bragg, and he said “You ought to go to work for my sister and her husband.” I said “What do they do?” He said “Well, they manufacture furniture.” They came over to Lexington one day to visit General Sink and General Sink happened to have a meeting of some sort that came up, so I said “General, don’t worry about your sister and her husband. I’ll take care of them and I’ll have them over to your house about 5:00 or 6:00. So don’t worry about them. I’ve got it.” I met them and showed them around the base and things like that and the next thing I know—not that trip, but another trip over—they said “Hey, how about getting out of the Army and coming to work for us?” They had a large furniture manufacturing business in Lexington, North Carolina. Anyway, I had 20 years in service at that time, and I was interested in doing something new, so I spent the next 21 or 22 years in the furniture business.11
Siebenaler – Do you want to add anything else to this interview? Is there something you would like to say that you feel is important for people to remember about your experiences?
McKinney – I don’t know. I can’t think of anything, really, that would be important. The greatest thing that our country can do, and I think they’re doing a pretty good job of it now, is to train people and keep a readiness force and well trained Reserve units. I think that’s the important thing because you don’t have long to get ready for a war. Those things can come up on you before you know it. I enjoyed the military and the only reason I got out was because I just really wanted to do something different. Of course, I made a lot more money and that helped. I have fond memories of the military and I think most of the people that I served with—officers and enlisted men—enjoyed the military, thought well of it, and so many of them stayed for 20 and 30 years.
Siebenaler – Were you married during your time of service?
McKinney – No. I got married after the war. I met a girl in 1938 or 1939—hometown girl—and we got married after the war in 1945.
Siebenaler – I want to thank you for doing this interview. I learned a lot from this. I really appreciate your time.
McKinney – I wish we could sit down for a day and I could tell you some funny stories, some sad stories—there is so much that went on in really a short time. I have a picture here in my bedroom that I keep up on the wall and look at. The headlines of the local paper in my hometown, down in Alabama, reads “Nazi Tanks and Dead Litter Anzio Beachhead.” Are you familiar with the name Anzio?
Siebenaler – I am familiar with that, sir.
McKinney – I think I was the first guy on the beach. I was the guy in the 509th Parachute Battalion and my job was to blow the barbed wire on the beach. To do that we had these Bangalore torpedos. Are you familiar with them?
Siebenaler – Yes I am.
McKinney – About the size of a baseball bat, and a little longer. My platoon and I had the job of blowing the barbed wire so the troops could come ashore, and I’ve got the headline right here in front of me—the big picture—that says “Nazi Tanks and Dead Litter Anzio Beachhead.” But anyway, I have a lot of fond memories that were interesting from time to time. I’m also looking at another picture over here on 12
my wall—a large picture—of General Westmoreland, which he insisted that I take and put a nice note on it for me. I have another picture under that of Lt. General Trapnell, who was a great hero of World War II and the Korean War. So I’ve got a lot of fond memories here that keep me awake.
Siebenaler – I imagine you do. Again, thank you for your service. You’ve done a great deal for your country.
McKinney – Well, you know, when people tell me that, I always throw my hand up and say “Hey, wait a minute, I got paid every month.” Where do you live?
Siebenaler – I live in Lexington, Virginia.